None of this is right - an open letter to fandom

[aragarna]

Dear fandom,

I'm tired of the difference of treatment Peter and Neal receive from the fandom.
Basically, whatever shenanigan Neal plots, it's excused because he has a good reason, and he has a good heart. And Peter has never the right to be the slightest angry at Neal for that, because otherwise he's just mean, cruel, ungrateful, sanctimonious and hypocrite.

This is not fair. This is not fair to Peter, nor it is fair to the show.
The general problem in this fandom (I'm only making general statements, so please, wonderful people of my flist, don't take it personally - unless you recognize yourself), is that the fandom is mostly and in majority rooting for Neal (and I blame his big blue eyes for this). Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a problem to have a favorite. I myself have a known soft spot for Peter. But where it annoys me is when any other character's feelings are disguarded because all that matters is Neal.

Why so much hate for so little?
What did Peter do?
- He isn't grateful of Neal's sacrifice to get him out of jail.
Well, if you pause one second to see things from his perspective, Neal didn't trust the system to work, so Neal decided to bribe a disctrict attorney, a man serving that system, a man now rotting that system. Peter, as someone who believes strongly in his duty to serve the system, can't accept this. This is the exact contrary of what his job is.
And I really don't see why that would make him a hypocrite. Peter has ventured in the grey areas in the past, but it has always been to serve the system. Restoring order and Justice and preventing criminals - or ill-intentioned agents - from furthering chaos and polluting that system he serves and that is meant to protect the society. Peter may have occasionally crossed the strict line of the law, but he never crossed his own line of moral and principles.
We all have a certain tolerance to the letter of the law, but also firm principles and boundaries that we won't cross (most people anyway) Like, you know, I might alledgedly watch White Collar illegally. I'm not going to rob a store. There is a certain rationalization work here, but I don't believe that makes me a hypocrite. It's just the set of principles I live by.
So, Peter has principles and moral lines he won't cross. He has an ideal of Justice and protection of the society. Is that bad?
Unless this fandom is actually made of psychopaths, we actually much more live(or aspire to live) according to Peter's line of conduct than Neal's.

Of course, that system Peter serves isn't perfect and it might have failed him - he wouldn't even know that for sure since Neal took it aways from him. But that doesn't mean Peter should give up the system, that only means he should work harder to make it work better.
So, no Peter isn't a hypocrite. Just a man with a strong moral compass. And it's actually eating him that he had to make a compromise that stains his moral compass.
Yet, he made that compromise. And if you tell me that he did it to save his ass, then why is he the only one having a hard time living with that choice?
He actually made the one thing that protects Neal and Elizabeth, and that makes him miserable. And yet, all fandom sees is a selfish ungrateful Peter...

The problem Peter has with Neal is that Neal doesn't seem to see the problem here. All he sees is a "win" when Peter sees a bad compromise. And it's easy for Neal to play the whole hurt victim. But he knew exactly what he was getting himself into. He kept it from Peter. He deceived and let Peter believe he did things right. That's as close to a lie as it ever gets with Neal. So, why did he keep it from Peter? Because he knew Peter wouldn't like it, wouldn't accept it. It was his choice. It would be a great sacrifice - freeing Peter at the price of his frienship - if only he assumed it, instead of making his puss-in-suit hurt look.

- The second Big Horrible Thing Peter did this season was...calling Neal a criminal, Oh My God. And twice! But seriously given all the illegal things Neal has done this season - deceiving, keeping secrets, stealing (including 2 millions of dollars and a macuahuilt just for the sake of it), impersonating an FBI agent, cracking his anklet... (And that's only what Peter knows) - well, he acted very much like a criminal all this time.
And isn't that hypocrite? Maybe if he really stopped acting like a criminal all the time, he could have a legitimate right to be hurt for being named such.

The bottom of the problem is that Neal doesn't know how not to be a criminal. He only think in "criminal". If he wants to be something else, he has to start trusting the non-criminals around him more. Hagen had power over a judge and wanted to coerce him into working for him? Neal should have gone to Peter, or at least the FBI with that piece of info. Tell them the judge was corrupted, that Hagen wanted an appeal. They could have taken them both down properly, legally.

Peter might still have lost his job? Well, Peter can barely do his job right now anyway. So, at least, Neal should have given Peter the choice. I get you out my own way, or you'll lose your badge. It would have been Peter's choice, instead of Neal's.
But Neal didn't give him that choice and made Peter quite close of a criminal himself. So, yes, I do think Peter has a legitimate right to be upset by the situation.

And you know, fandom, there's little doubt Peter won't stay mad at Neal for very long. They'll work things out. Why can't you show Peter just a little bit of faith?
Why are you so harsh on Peter and so forgiving of Neal?
I don't remember you, fandom, asking for Neal's head when he said "we're done" (season 4), or "we're not partners anymore" (season 5). No, of course, you found Neal some nice excuses. Oh right, especially that second one that was nice: he had a crime to commit right under his new handler's nose so he had to get rid of Peter!
But those comments hurt Peter just the same way Peter's words can hurt Neal.
Oh, and I don't remember you saying you hated Neal for having an innocent bystander fired, or you know, like I said, stealing things for the sake of it.

Peter's misteps are mean and cruel and selfish. Neal's always have good excuses. With you fandom, it's always Peter's fault, all you see is Peter being angry, but you don't care that he's just as hurt as Neal. And really, it's tiresome. Peter too, has feelings.

And for the record, I don't like this blame game at all. I don't really enjoy pointing out all of the wrongs in Neal. I still think Neal is worth fighting for and rooting for. I enjoy much more focusing on the great in the characters, than on their faults. Though their faults are what make them human and also lovable. And I don't understand why this compassion for Neal can't be applied to Peter.
And I do understand why Neal is hurt. I do feel for Neal. But why, oh why, fandom, can't you be just a little more tolerant for Peter, who is just as hurt? After 5 seasons, don't you know Peter enough to know that he is not cruel, and that if he reacts the way he does it's because he's hurting? And can't you stop forgetting all the great things Peter did in the previous seasons that proved that Peter does love Neal?

The problem with all this, beyond the fact that it does ruins a little my enjoyment of the show and it makes me afraid just to talk to you, fandom, the problem is that you seem to be missing the whole point of the show. The show is about two men who are on opposite sides, and became unexpectedly friends, and who are trying to find a balance between their respective world and their friendship. And this season is also testing the limit of the lenght they both can go for each other without losing themselves. But this friendship is only beautiful if both men are considered beautiful and decent.
Also, and I'm sorry fandom, but ultimately, Neal is the one on the wrong side of the law and moral. So, he's the one who will have to make the greatest effort... There are reasons why crimes are illegal, which Neal needs to understand.


Feel free not to comment if you feel your eyes just rolling out of your eyeballs in disapproval.
I guess I just needed this off my chest...

Comments

[winterstar95.livejournal.com]

You got that right none of this is right. I don't like season 5 at all. Is it because of Peter or Neal? Neither. It is because of the writers. This show used to be charming - now, it isn't at all. The two main characters used to have a bromance, now not. I don't like it. I continue to watch in hopes that the writers will remember why the fandom is there in the first place, but I have little hope. I will continue to pretend season 5 doesn't exist for my head canon sake.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Oh it's okay not to like season 5. And really, of the people unhappy with season 5, you're one of the less vocal. I don't have a problem with people not liking season 5 (even if some comments do pain me), here it's just a point about the huge different of treatment between the 2 main characters... It's been particularly awful this season, but it's true each time Peter says something wrong (or any other character for that matter)

[elrhiarhodan]

You are absolutely right - fandom has (by and large) been terrible unfair to Peter, and this past week, to Jones, too.

I see comments that seem to attribute every case Peter's ever solved, every single triumph, every success, to Neal. That he was nothing before Neal and he'll be nothing afterwards.

HAH! Peter's success - particularly when you look at the numbers he quotes in the start of Withdrawal - are pretty conclusively his own (timeline-wise, that hearing in Withdrawal was about only 5 - 6 months into Neal's tenure).

I love Neal, don't get me wrong. But he's not an angel, he fucks up and does it badly. Let's make a list of his pre-S5 transgressions:

1 - Engineers the theft of the music box from the Italian Embassy and then from Diana's apartment
2 - Steals a gun, breaks into a museum, and nearly murders Fowler
3 - Is significantly responsible for the kidnapping of Peter's wife
4 - Steals a priceless Egyptian artifact
5 - Steals The Entrance of the Masked Dancers
6 - Conceals the stolen Nazi loot, plans on running at the earliest possible moment (and a point in his favor that he sacrificed the Otter to save Jones)

Neal has consistently committed criminal acts and Peter called him a criminal. I'm supposed to be shocked?

Now - one thing that no one seems to mention is that Peter spent six weeks in PRISON - and while the charges were never specified, he could have been facing the death penalty (murdering a U.S. government official is a capital crime). Don't you think that might have done something to Peter's psyche? Made him wary and frightened and a little gun shy?

Now - I love me some angst and this season is definitely feeding the plot bunnies, but the Peter bashing HAS GOT TO STOP.

Thank you for letting me get this off of my chest.

[anodyneer]

This...all of this.

To add to your list - he broke into Peter's house, and into his personal safe (to which he "stole" the imprint for the key as well) to get the U-boat manifest. Peter still doesn't know about this one. It might not seem as big as the others you listed, but it has always stood out in my mind because that's Peter's home - and Neal saw how violated Peter felt when Fowler's people were in his home.

Also, as for Peter's success, we can't forget that he's the only one who could catch Neal. He also moved up in the division fairly quickly (from the bullpen to getting his own office and being in charge) before Neal started working for him. Neal definitely helped his closure rate, but Peter would've moved up in the ranks with or without him - probably faster without him, since Peter likely wouldn't have been suspended/had his badge taken multiple times. And yeah, wouldn't have spent six weeks in prison. O.o

I saw a lot of frustration directed toward the comments Peter made to Jones about not becoming Neal's handler. Peter's exact quote was: "Don't volunteer to take him on. Trust me, you'll regret it."

Never does he say, "I regret it" or "you'll regret it as much as I do" or anything even close to that. He's only saying that Jones will regret it...and he's absolutely correct. Jones wouldn't have the tolerance for all of Neal's "criminal baggage" (for lack of a better term), and while Peter has been able to roll with it up until this season, I don't think the same could be said for Jones.

Hell, Jones already thinks Neal's holding Peter back, and he was also the only one at Neal's commutation hearing who testified that he thought Neal should serve out his sentence instead of being freed. Jones is a respectable agent, but he's not Peter, and he would regret (probably even grow to resent) becoming Neal's handler. IMO, anyway.

I'm actually enjoying this season. So many of us write angst into our fics and love reading it, but then when it happens on the show, OH NOES! ;) I have faith that the angst will be resolved eventually, because they know what they have in the bromance...so in the meantime I'm enjoying it.

We've had some great stuff that we've basically asked for (either in fics or via social media) this season - sick Peter, drugged Neal, more of Peter in casual clothes and shirtless, Neal in various states of undress, Mozzie being deliciously badass, etc. And "Live Feed," in particular, literally kept me on the edge of my seat - and cursing commercial breaks - until the very end (and anxiously awaiting the rest of the season).

All that to say, I'm with you - the Peter bashing needs to stop. Bottom line, he still cares about Neal a great deal, or he would've just sent him back to prison and been done with him already. He does still have the power/option to revoke Neal's work release, but despite all that's happened, he's chosen not to do that. There is still some part of Peter that believes Neal deserves to be out of prison, working with the FBI, and doing right in the world.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Exactly! :-)
It's all in that sentence you wrote:
I love Neal, don't get me wrong. But he's not an angel, he fucks up and does it badly.
I feel like some people try very hard to see him as an angel (he does look like one, that may explain it... ;-) )

And also, yes, Peter does very well on his own - his closure rate was high enough before Neal -, and it's not always Neal who has the solution to catch the bad guys. They're usually shown equally smart. Which is actually one thing that I like about the show, compared to other cop-consultant shows.

[sholio]

YES, ALL OF THIS. THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS. ♥

I love that the show itself doesn't really take sides -- we see (and are invited to sympathize with) both Peter and Neal's reasons for doing what they do. We see both of them make mistakes; we see both of them get hurt, and hurt each other.

I just wish the fandom could view it likewise. The Peter bashing hurts my heart. And like you said, I don't want to see Neal bashed instead. I just want fandom to give BOTH of them a chance, and accept that BOTH of them have valid reasons for what they do.

I mean, if you turn the latest conflict around ... imagine that Peter did something to really hurt Neal, so Neal pulled back and became cooler toward him, and told someone else (completely outside Peter's earshot -- in this episode, Peter had no idea Neal was listening) that he regrets taking the anklet deal ... do you think we'd see a huge upswell of hate directed at Neal? No! In fact, what I described is basically just what happened in early season five. It's the unfairness of it that frustrates me so much. Neal should have sympathy, certainly, but Peter should have sympathy too.

And yeah, it's made me reluctant to interact with the fandom. I've been loving this season, but I've had to pull back from reading too many episode reactions, and I'm too nervous to make my own reaction posts because the character bashing makes me so unhappy. I've asked people not to leave me Peter-bashing comments, and gotten them anyway. I've been told I'm over-sensitive and that I'm just imagining the Peter hate, that it doesn't really exist. Screw that, it does exist, it's everywhere. And okay, yeah, I know I can be thin-skinned on that subject and I'm trying to be more chill about it, but I just wish it was possible to find more spaces in the fandom that are Peter-friendly. (Which is one of the reasons why I love your journal so much! :))

It's just terribly frustrating because, like you said, the whole POINT of the show is that it's about two very different men with different approaches to solving crimes, trying to get along and occasionally failing. It's NOT about Neal the victim and his abusive handler, but you'd never know that from the way some people react to it.

[lov-pb.livejournal.com]

Yes , I agree 100%. Thank you Sholio, Ara, Anodyneer and Elrhiarhodan for taking an unpopular stand. Peter bashing and Peter hate does exist. It was never more evident than in the last few months. Can't we be more like the series itself and accommodate both men's perspective? Their love for each other always outweighs their differences.

[lov-pb.livejournal.com]

Fandom has always been slanted toward Neal''s behalf, holding Peter to an impossible standard. He's damned if he protects Neal (hypocritical lawbreaker) or plays the lawman (tyrant not appreciating Neal's contributions). This season brought out the worse fan tirades hurled at Peter's character. It was ridiculous in its extreme. It also took away a great deal of my enjoyment with the show.
Like you pointed out --- these two men are opposites in many areas. Let's have some respect for both characters. Instead of tearing their actions apart, try to understand their motives and perceptions.
Peter has always championed Neal's cause, even to the detriment of his own career. His prison experience caused him to re-evaluate the line he crossed.
Peter Burke is a good man; certainly one of my role models. :)

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Let's have some respect for both characters. Instead of tearing their actions apart, try to understand their motives and perceptions.

This!

oh and this:
Peter Burke is a good man; certainly one of my role models. :)

[frith_in_thorns]

Personally, this is my favourite season so far to watch! I really love how the show's getting deep into the character motivations and into what makes each of them who they are. And how far they're willing to go for each other. This is Peter's break point, and I love that we're finding it. And the conflict between them here feels completely natural and not at all forced (this was my main problem with S3 -- I was on board with them being at odds, but the reason for it felt kind of staged).

This is to say, I really HATE the Peter-bashing. I'm amazed he isn't MORE fucked up at this point, tbh! But they're BOTH hurting, in different ways. Sure, Peter's reacting kind of badly, but Neal reacts kind of badly ALL THE TIME. I don't like the double standard, and it makes me sad :(

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly! I think the show is at its best (for me anyway) when it's going deep exploring its own concept: that friendship that shouldn't be. I didn't even had a problem with season 3. To be be honest, that season 2 cliffhanger left me all excited, like "omg, how are they going to solve this?!" (I guess I did see the reason behind it more than the angst of the situation itself. I wasn't so invested in the series either).
I find it more interesting than Neal's past and all its drama, because the core of the show is the relationship between Neal and Peter.
I think the "it's a win" "it's a compromise" line was the most interesting part of that conversation, because it shows clearly the difference of views between Neal and Peter. They still have so much to learn... ;-)

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

PREACH.

There's always been Peter negativity in fandom, but lately it's reached toxic levels. Neither Peter nor Neal are perfect. Both of them have hurt each other. Both of them have, at one point or another, wronged each other. But somehow, it's only Neal's feelings that matter.

Peter's reaction doesn't need to be 100% cold logic. He gets to be angry. He gets to feel hurt. This season has been great at treating both Neal and Peter's viewpoints with respect and understanding. Fandom could learn a few things.

(Icon not aimed at you.)

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

(Icon not aimed at you.)
LOL I didn't take it for me, and it did make me laugh! :-D

But, yes, that's what I find frustrating. Peter doesn't seem allowed to have feelings... Even when the show clearly shows it. I find the show pretty fair to both guys, and I wish fandom was too.

[surreal-44.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. I agree totally.

I've withdrawn from WC fandom mostly because I couldn't deal with the inevitable Peter-bashing. I think it's pretty obvious that Peter is struggling with a lot of issues, and his coping mechanism sucks (and by coping mechanism, I mean that he's withdrawing from El and Neal, and NOT actually coping with anything).

Peter's reactions have all been very realistic. How else is he supposed to react to what's happened?

He's been kidnapped like three times now, been nearly killed half a dozen other times, had his wife kidnapped, and been in prison facing a completely uncertain future. If he doesn't have PTSD, I would be shocked.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Oh nice to see you! :-)

Peter's reactions have all been very realistic. How else is he supposed to react to what's happened?

And what would have it said about his character if he had taken it all with a smile?!
Sure it would have been an easier road for the fans I guess, but for Peter's character, I have to say I would have been disappointed.

[car8.livejournal.com]

I hate to see you so upset. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is there any way that you can stay away from that awful place? It's the worst place i n the fandom and always has been.

I went in season 1, then stopped. Once in a while, I peek in to see if anything has changed, and leave again.I'm mainly talking about the episode threads, because I still had been going to actor and character threads, but lately the venom has spread everywhere. The moderation is terrible.

As you said, it's taking some of your joy about the show away. That is terrible. Don't you think you would be happier just staying away? It sounds like you aren't getting anywhere defending your point of view, and you can't be enjoying hitting your head against a brick wall. It hurts!

I hope that there are lots of places where there are actual fans of White Collar and that you know where they are. I really don't want to believe that the majority of the fandom is represented by that cesspool.I hope that I didn't offend you and that it helped you to post this and to get support from your friends. Hang in there.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Oh I do limit my interactions in the forum. I stick to the safe threads. And I did make a big rant there.
But it's actually not just the forum. I see it here too. In certain of the most popular episode reaction posts. It's full of "I hate Peter" or "I'm starting to hate Peter" "Peter is just an hypocrite". It's not as bad as it is in the forum, but it does exist on LJ too.

But I do find better places here in LJ too. Maybe because it makes it easier to filter the people you can interact with, and the people who sees things so differently from me, they just don't friend me.

Anyway, thanks for your message. :-) No offense at all. The positive reactions to this post actually make me feel better. :-)
There ARE great and measured people in the fandom!

[sg-lab.livejournal.com]

Peter has ventured in the grey areas in the past, but it has always been to serve the system. Restoring order and Justice and preventing criminals - or ill-intentioned agents - from furthering chaos and polluting that system he serves and that is meant to protect the society.

This so much. Peter believes in the system, he just sees there are people who corrupt that system and he can't stand for that.

I've been following along on the forum, but quit posting a while ago. It's just so depressing. I feel like I'm watching a completely different show from so much of the fandom. Then again, I've never really felt I fit into this fandom really.

I'd like to friend you, I have very few White Collar fans on my flist.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

friended you back! :-)

Yes, I have the feeling that people don't see it as a good thing that Peter believes in the system. I don't understand. The system, and the society aren't perfect, but that's what protects us, as citizens. We need people like Peter to serve it. Maybe Peter can sounds naive or idealistic, but that's still what makes him deep down, a good guy.
Maybe it's the long heritage of rebellous cops and agents on TV who have lost all respect for the system they serve... Peter is an oddity.

[sapphire2309]

I really only thought to question Peter for his comments when fandom mentioned it. Usually, I watch the show in a happy daze, not analyzing till the rewatch, but since I joined fandom, I read episode squees before the rewatch. Fandom people generally pick up a lot more on their first viewing of the ep than I do. And then I saw all the focus on the 'criminal' comment and started doubting myself. (This is also why I read books twice)

I was supporting both of them at the end of S5E1, then I dropped into fandom reactions and they confused me.

Thankfully, I decided to keep out of any discussions on Peter.

I agree with everyone who has said that fandom has been unfair to Peter.

Though I watch the show mostly for Neal, I love Peter too, and I think he's been perfectly in character, beautifully conflicted and pretty damn brilliant all season long. He's made very difficult choices, including a moral compromise the size of a blackhole that could consume him, and that is not easy for anybody.

If I'd had to stay in prison for six weeks, and (as far as I knew) Neal was responsible for it, and I had the option of getting him out of my sight(despite the fact that that means a prison cell), I would have done it.

I respect Peter for not taking that step (yet - I'm somewhat evilly hoping that he does put Neal back in prison). I think it means he still cares for Neal, despite the huge amount of pain and conflict he's been through because of him, or at the very least doesn't feel comfortable with the thought of taking that step - it's as much a point of no return for him as cutting the anklet is for Neal.

Peter is far stronger than I would have been.

I've started rewatching episodes before delving into fandom reactions, so that I have my own point of view and enough material to stick to it and not be influenced by Peter-bashing. I wish it wasn't something I had to do.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Heee lol, that's what happened to me in season 3. I joined the fandom at the start of season 3. Obviously that was a bad time LOL I was totally surprised by the fandom reaction.

The sad thing is that now I know the fandom enough to know what they're going to say. I knew El would be ripped apart for asking Neal to lie (like it was the endo of the world). And I knew that the "criminal" part of Peter's speech in 5x01 would weight much more than the "you're part of that family" and " I can't risk you going back".

Like I said, I don't have a problem per se if people prefer Neal (or Mozzie, or Satchmo), and like you show, there's no reason not to love both characters.

Thanks for your post! :-)

[sheenianni.livejournal.com]

Agreed. As much as it hurts to watch Peter's reaction, he has plenty of reasons to be upset and I can't really blame him for lashing out.

I guess most of it has already bee nsaid above. The thing is, this conflict (a sort of "there's a right way to do things" vs "the end justifies the means") has been slowly brewing there for all the previous seasons - the only difference is that now it's been blown wide open. And putting it like that is still a simplification... matters in season 5 are so complex, it would take a long post to cover even half of them.

In a way, I guess what goes against Peter is that he is so - normal. He doesn't have a tragic past, doesn't come from an abusive family and doesn't have skeletons in the closet. Instead, he has a nice house, a loving wife and a dog - he has a good job that he loves and is surrounded by people who respect him - he's like the poster boy for the American dream. Neal on the other hand is closer to the "tragic hero" type, which makes it so much easier for people to excuse his numerous screw-ups. It isn't fair though, and it's not how friendships work - in the matter of their friendship, Peter and Neal are equeals. Peter can't just take crap from Neal without reacting - that's not a healthy relationship. This anger and angst is truly painful to watch, but in the light of the recent events, it had to happen.

I just hope that the boys can find it in themselves to move on and rekindle their friendship - and rather sooner or later. I don't know how much longer I can watch Peter and Neal suffering like this.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Ah good point about normal guy vs. tragic hero. You're right saying it probably gives Neal more sympathy (plus maybe his dreams being bigger than life as opposed to Peter's simple suburban life).
Though I would say that things that can be excused for a teenager aren't as excusable for a 30 something.

And I definitely agreeon your last point. I don't mind seeing them at odds, but it would be damn time to have them back together on the same page! :-)
I'm hopeful that it should start next week, once everything is out and over.

[kerrylang.livejournal.com]

I have to say one more thing:

The way Peter shoved Neal down at the shooting and the way his gentle voice said: "This is her apartment", told me that Peter still cares about Neal, deeply. He knows that Neal is in love with Rebecca and he wants Neal to be happy, the look on his face when Neal told him that Rebecca looks at him like El looked at Peter, said as much. Peter wants Neal happy and now he realizes that she is playing Neal in a cruel way. Peter will never be and never was that cruel to be happy about Neal being played.

So, I think and hope that they join forces to take down the devil and while they are at it, they need to talk again about everything that went wrong and about their realationship.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Of course Peter cares about Neal. Neal is family. You can be mad at your sibling, that doesn't mean you stop loving them. :-)
And Peter is definitely not a cruel person. Like Neal isn't cruel to Peter either when he does things wrong...

[lov-pb.livejournal.com]

Thank you, once again Ara for posting your thoughts, and for all the people who responded. I needed this! Ara knew a few of us from the forum have been heartsick over the toxic atmosphere there and in fandom. You've brightened my weekend.
Pamela 11

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Hey no problem Pam. I think I just needed to get it all out. :-)
But even though the worst of it is in the forum, there's also an underlying harshness toward Peter in certain episode reactions here too. Less name-calling, but same unhappiness. It's getting hard to find safe places to squee about the show and about the boys these days...

[leesa_perrie]

Not much to add, everyone's said things much better than me, so I'll just leave it as YES to all of this! Peter is NOT a horrible, nasty person, Neal is NOT a poor misunderstood victim!

Having had problems with general fandom in Stargate Atlantis (oh, the wars and hatred in that fandom are many and vast), I have learned to be very careful where I go and who I interact with. This means I may miss out on discussing things with fans and reading episode reviews (accept by people I trust), but it means that, other than fic, I can avoid the worst of the character-bashing that's going on (and even with fic sometimes, if I know that author is anti-Peter).

Anyway, I feel your pain *hugs*

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Thanks! *hugs you back*

Yes, I guess you find this kind of things in every fandom...
I do try to be careful, and you know, take some distance, but it's not easy lately... And I like interacting with other fans, so I find it hard to really withdraw from fandom.
Anyway, let's just hope the end of the season will have everyone (Neal, Peter and the fans) all on the same page! :-)

[kanarek13]

I read through all the responses and I really feel like there is only one place in the entire fandom that is a black hole, and the rest of it is a beautiful star-filled universe :D

The overall response to this post is a delight to read, thank you for posting the initial letter, Ara, and thank you to all who responded. All I can say is YES on all accounts.

Personally, I love exploring things from various perspectives, I'm not always happy with Peter and I'm not always happy with Neal, but my first and foremost reaction is to try and understand the boys and where their words and actions are coming from. Hating and bashing a character defeats the entire purpose of enjoying the show and the fandom :( Especially when you can express your dislike in a way that will engage people in a healthy discussion *HUGS*

I think one other thing that gets me is that the hateful, vindictive comments towards Peter we come across every day are also hurting Neal as a character. Honestly, if I didn't know the show and read comments of some of the Peter bashers, I would think that Neal is some sort of spineless whimp who spends most of his days curled up in a corner bawling his eyes out because Peter (who is a heartless monster) didn't smile at Neal for an entire hour :/

This whole situation is just sad and truly takes all the fun out of the whole fandom experience. Since no amount of arguments is gonna change that (after months of trying you know that best :), the only solution is, indeed, to shield ourselves from it as much as possible.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree that it reflects poorly on Neal, because even if Neal can be a real kid sometimes, he also never does anything he doesn't want to do. He has his own willpower and a very independent character.
And even if he feels like he needs Peter in his life, Neal isn't a needy person. He would do just fine without Peter. A different kind of life probably, but still a good life.

[treonb.livejournal.com]

I'm not that upset at Peter at the moment. I did think he was a bit hypocritical at first, because he sent Neal to commit actual crimes so he could close cases. But by now it doesn't matter, because I don't see it as an issue of who's right and who's wrong. Peter is taking this very personally. He feels personally betrayed by Neal, and he's responding like a betrayed friend, which is just fine.

But, I am very concerned for the Peter-Neal dynamic and their friendship, and for the possibility that they may not solve this issue before the end of S5 *gulp*

As for Neal, I admit I am willing to forgive him for almost anything. That's because I agree with Peter ;-) Neal is a criminal, he thinks like a criminal, and though he has his own set of principles, I really don't expect anything from him.

Peter is the adult here, and so he's expected to live up to a higher standard.

I think many people in fandom believe in Neal, but for me, the minute Neal becomes an honest man, it's going to be the end of the show.

What hurts at this point is that Peter had believed Neal could be redeemed (no idea why!) and has now gotten to the conclusion that he can't. For Neal that's a major blow, because he has managed to delude himself until now that he can actually play both sides, and he had really believed he was halfway to being reformed. And also because Peter has been one of the only people who believed that Neal can become an honest man, and now he's lost that. Maybe Neal wasn't fully reformed, but it did make him a better man.

You can say we're back to the situation in S1, except that then, they didn't have this friendship, they weren't so invested in what's happening, and didn't take things as personally.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

All great points. :-)
I have the feeling that lots of people in the fandom love Neal for being a bad boy but they don't like seeing doing bad things.

To me, Neal doesn't seem to really have what it takes to be a real criminal. He's not Mozzie or Keller. He doesn't assume the downsides of being a criminal. He wants an honest love life, he wants real friends, he wants people to trust him. So, I think ultimately he'll have to change.

And definitely, yes, about season one. In season one, Neal just wanted to find Kate, Peter was trying to control him, but it was sort of the unwritten part of the deal. It was okay. Expected I guess. Now, it's different when they are at odds, it hurts. And the reason is that now they really care about each others. :-)

[scarym1.livejournal.com]

Thanks for getting that off your chest. I appreciate your insight into Peter & Neal. : )

I am seriously loving the Angst this season. I remember when I first fell in love with WC, 2 years ago, I had wished it would be a bit more angsty. Well it took a while but boy did I get my wish. : ) I know it hurts to see the boys so messed up but I wish people would just have more patience and faith that it will eventually all work out.

I believe that with such angst the payoff (with them becoming closer and with a better understanding of each other) will be worth the journey.

[lov-pb.livejournal.com]

I have that same wish, Scarym1. Once the air clears on this arc, I'd love them reunited taking on a different assortment of villains, focusing on baffling case procedurals.

[suebsg9.livejournal.com]

Not sure if anyone else has added on the fact that Hagen got out of jail thanks to neal destroying the evidence. Granted Peter has done some things and trust me any argument you have with a neal fan you get all the things peter has done recited like they have been keeping track since season 1 and the big one was the always the evidence that never made it to the fbi the music box oh my god. Who cares what neal has done its what peter has done and I get tired of the hate for peter. Its like awww poor neal. and my god don't call him a criminal he got arrested for forgery no biggie who cares about the other crimes. And I have learned that if I wish to talk about Peter I go to the peter thread because that is safe spot most of time. I figure I can talk to peter fans about the character but when its so much hate for peter I stay away because its like because of neal and his looks he can get away with murder and it would still be poor neal. And another thing noticed about season is how easily neal and moz find ways to escape or do stuff this season I mean their trickiness to me is not as elaborate as over the other seasons. But I just wish we could stop the peter hatred. this is my two cents.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

lol actually, no, no one mentioned how Neal got Hagen out of jail. At this point, maybe it's just as well if Peter doesn't know, because it would be an even bigger pill to swallow. His release against Hagen's ? wow the heartache... Not sure he'd survive it...

[sanuye12.livejournal.com]

Well, thank goodness, love PB directed me over here. Ara, you stated your case brilliantly. And bravo to the brave souls here who ventured to speak up for the unpopular guy!

I left the forum and lately, most of White Collar fandom, due to a lack of time and a lack of excitement about the fifth season. Most of all though, the truly endless cycle of Peter hate that has gone on since I first watched the show. To be sure, ANY character who didn't coo over Neal that week is bashed with gusto. The list is quite long; Peter (boo, hiss), Elizabeth, Jones and remember the great hate towards Mozzie during the treasure arc. I'm sure Diana's time is coming soon. The forum itself is merely a platform for one point of view, endlessly amplified and repeated, each post more shrill the next and, frankly, more outlandish. I only hope the powers that be, USA network and the writers, do not take that venue as the sole measuring stick for this fandom. What a sorry picture it presents if they do.

As for the show itself, I haven't really been all that happy since season 3. That was the season Neal lied to Peter (I tend to discount all of that lie of omission stuff) and the time he broke into Peter's house. The mere act itself destroyed any sort of trust I had in Neal. Up until that point I had always liked Neal; a charmer with a good heart and questionable methods. But that act broke something in me, coupled with the fact that Neal has done little or nothing since to show he is worth the effort, he can change, he can be trusted. The writing lately has brought me to doubt this. With all of these transgressions and broken trust between them, how can they realistically be a team again? Is Peter just supposed to forgive and forget, like he had to in the treasure fiasco? Signing off on a lie? At some point you begin to erode away Peter's core principles, his morals and his integrity. I thought the most telling scene this week (well, other than the hand on Neal's shoulder during the gunfire; old times! Good!)was when Peter told El he had forgiven Neal for his part but he could not forgive himself. That was how deep the conflict was for Peter. Given that mindset, how could he realistically encourage Jones to take on Neal?

I hope this doesn't sound like a Neal bash; I'm upset with the way Neal has been written. I'm not saying all should be, well, 'peaches and dandelions' between the guys at all times but I'm tired of the conflicts, and relationship ending serious differences that last all season long. They usually only patch things up in the last episode or so. So we fans can go away happy on an hiatus. Until the season opener, that is.

Okay, this post has been way longer than I intended. Oops.

Thanks, Ara.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

lol looks like you some things to get off your chest too. ;-)

I think Diana adopted the best strategy: disappear!
She's the perfect character: she has zero screen time. ;-)

when Peter told El he had forgiven Neal for his part but he could not forgive himself. That was how deep the conflict was for Peter. Given that mindset, how could he realistically encourage Jones to take on Neal?

Yes, it's a big deal for Peter. At some point he'll have to let it go, but the fact he's having a hard time shows that no matter how much Neal is pulling him to the dark side, Peter is still Peter. I have been waiting for the big reveal all season, and though I was expecting Peter not to take it well, I wasn't expecting him to take it so hard.
I actually find the whole thing heartbreaking. His advice to Jones particularly. When you think that no so long ago he was saying "Kate, the Music Box, everything, I'd do it all again"

[love-82.livejournal.com]

Before I get to my comment this made me laugh:

(and I blame his big blue eyes for this)

I was thinking the same thing. It is those damn eyes. He looks so sad like he is going to cry and you just want to hug him.

But seriously now- I am late to this, as usual, and everyone already said everything so much better than I could. So I will cosign what others have said and your post and thank you for writing this.

I have long since grown tired of the poor little innocent Neal who is picked on by big bad mean Peter. What show are they watching? Peter does not act like that and would not act the way some people portray him as. Peter is not some monster. Of course he is not perfect. Who is? He has flaws. Like all of the characters. I love all of them and have been mad at all them for things they did/said. I am mainly talking about Peter, Neal, Elizabeth and Mozzie here. But I like to try to understand why they would be acting that way and their pov. I wish more people did that.

In the case of Peter and Neal, I love them both equally. The heart of the show is their relationship. I don't get the taking sides thing or tearing one of them down. I feel bad for both of them and see where they are both coming from. They are both hurt and angry and lost but the love they have for each other is still very much evident. They need to sit down and talk things through. I really hope they do.

I hope it helped you to get this off your chest.

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

But I like to try to understand why they would be acting that way and their pov. I wish more people did that.

Yes, exactly!
The comment to Jones about not becoming Neal's handler is a perfect example. Instead of being mad at Peter for saying this, one should take it as a clue of how much Peter is hurting right now. For Peter, someone who has proved enough in the past how much he loves Neal, to say this, it's actually heartbreaking to hear him say that.

[love-82.livejournal.com]

One more comment:

I see some of Peter's actions, especially what he said to Jones in the last episode as a defense mechanism. He is trying to convince himself that he really believes what he is saying when in his heart he doesn't. And he is conflicted.

Also, if you look at everything that has happened objectively not many people would have been as forgiving as Peter and keep giving Neal second, what number would they be on now, chances.

It shows how much he loves Neal and his forgiving nature that he hasn't given up on Neal. And as much as I love Neal, in my opinion he would be completely justified in doing so.

*Sorry for the edits. Apparently I can't type tonight.

[tjs-whatnot.livejournal.com]

I was going to read all the comments, but there are just too many. YES to all of this. I haven't been paying too much attention to the comments in fandom because last season it seemed to ruin some of the fun of the show for me and people hated parts I didn't and pointed out all the stupid that I was happy to ignore so it soon became all I saw.

At first, I gotta admit, it hurt when Peter reminded Neal that he was a criminal... but then, like you suggested, I saw it through Peter's eyes and saw that he wasn't reminding Neal of that fact, he was reminding himself of it. He realizes that he's gotten to close, that he's given so much of himself away and it scares him. This whole season to me seems to be both Neal and Peter realizing that no matter what, no matter how Peter has tried to change him, and no matter how much Neal actually has changed, that at his core, he's always going to take the easy way rather than the hard, legal way. And they have to either learn to deal with that and Peter needs to learn how to work it to his advantage like he has so very many times before, or they have to separate... for everyone's health and well being.

Where I do think Peter is a bit of a hypocrite (and this is where my bias and focus come in) and where no one else seems to pay attention because it's not about Neal and OMG, everything is about Neal... is Mozzie. Peter knows that Mozzie has been an accomplice in everything Neal has done, knows that he was Lone Star, that he was Teddy Winters... has no idea until recently that it wasn't that case that got Siegel killed and yet has never even so much as threatened Mozzie with prison. In fact, he even showed his hand to Mozzie, revealed that he knew everything and used Mozzie's begrudging loyalty to Diana against him and also his loyalty to El. Two of the only 4 people Mozzie trusts and would do almost anything for. The other two being, of course, Neal and begrudgingly Peter himself.

And I say all of this not to smear Peter at all, but to show that he is diverse, that he isn't being OOC and harsh with Neal that he has his own agendas and story lines that have nothing to do with Neal... he's his own person, his own character with flaws and questions and angst and I love him so very much.

♥♥♥

[aragarna.livejournal.com]

Well, I think Peter has a much simplier relationship with Mozzie because he isn't invested in Mozzie. He doesn't think Mozzie can change, and their alliance is more of a common interest in protecting Neal, and as both friends of Neal, they kind of accept his friends as extensions of him.

But Peter will not do any harm to Mozzie, because going after Mozzie would be going after Neal. Peter won't arrest Mozzie more than he'll ever arrest Neal. But Neal is Peter's partner and responsibility, which Mozzie isn't. So it doesn't bother Peter the same way if Mozzie - which he does consider much more like a criminal - commits a crime or if Neal commits a crime.

Mozzie commiting crimes is expected, Neal, well, Peter tried to believe it wasn't so expected. Though he might be realizing that Neal doesn't really want to change, and that's part of his big problem this season. Find a new perspective in his friendship with Neal.

Plus, given his position in the FBI and as Peter's responsibility, Neal's crimes often implicate Peter. Mozzie's don't.

Anyway, I agree with you that all the negativity and pointings at the wrong things do take away a lot of fun.