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aragarnaI'll make a proper and illustrated squee later, but I wanted to talk a little about Peter here, because, as they say on tumblr, Peter needs more love.
Yes, it hurts to see the boys at odds, and it's a complicated situation but I don't want to put the blame on anybody. Yes, Neal did the only things he could to save Peter, and it's legitimate for him to feel like he did the right thing. But Peter is Peter, and from his point of view, this cannot be the right thing.
This is a very complicated for Peter, and I'll try to make it coherent. It was kind of a test, and as a character, I think Peter passed it.
But first of all, I think it's important to point out that after 4 seasons and a half of shenanigans and love, it should be an established fact that Peter cares very much for Neal, so anything that rips them apart is just as painful for Peter as it is for Neal (and for us). Neal feels hurt and betrayed. Peter very much too.
There's a right way and a wrong way.
Peter's a man of law, he believes strongly in his duty to serve Justice. He doesn't place himself above the law, but he needs to be above suspicion and reproach. He has high standards to live up to. To "serve Justice" he needs to be untouchable. He can bend the law, and sometimes obtain leads without warrants - leads, not evidence. But in the end, he always makes sure everything fall back within the law, and that he is serving justice. Bad guys are being arrested and will face trial, he gathers evidence, and protects the victim.
Contrary to Neal's remark, it is not "the end justifies the mean." The mean has to be acceptable. And like I said before, if Peter can venture outside his law book, he will never venture outside the right side of moral.
And faking evidence, bribing a judge, that's simply NOT acceptable. Period.
What would it say about him if he accepted that? That would make him just as corrupted and morally wrong as any of the criminal he arrests. Morally, he should arrest himself.
That conversation with Elizabeth was particularly heartbreaking, and I love Peter so much for his internal troubles. He'd rather risk a trial - that doesn't even look good for him - than compromise himself. And it's not a pose. It's that deep down, he couldn't live with himself if he was corrupted. Peter needs to believe he is a good person.
I need to be able to live with myself.
Now that he knows, he feels like it's his duty to reveal everything, even if the consequences would be disastrous for him.
Of course, in the end, he accepted a compromise, because he's also caring, and Elizabeth should not have to pay the price of his conscience crisis. And neither should Neal.
But accepting this compromise cost Peter a lot, and it's legitimate that he doesn't want to be placed in such a situation again.
Peter is actually terrified of what it means for him, of who he's become. How did he end in a situation where he had no right way out? How come that the only thing to do was to compromise himself, doing something he deeply despises?
During four seasons, Peter thought he was pulling Neal to the right side, showing him he could become someone better. And now he is realizing it's actually Neal who is dragging him on his side. And that's a side Peter doesn't want to go to.
Solving things illegally and against the system always come back to bite you, it only created more chaos. If you think only in term of self-interest and not in a larger view of restoring justice, it doesn't actually solve anything.
So, Peter is also disappointed. In Neal, who he really wanted to believe was becoming a better person, and in himself, for fooling himself in believing so.
There's also the fact that Peter didn't ask for any of this. He was ready to accept the consequences for his actions, because he always does. He'd do anything for Neal, disobey order or help his father, and he's ready to accept the demotions or unfortunate turns of events. If he had lost his job, he would have accepted it, because he was convinced he had still been doing the right thing helping Neal.
Peter has no problems taking full responsiblity for his actions, but it's harder to accept things he didn't do, wasn't asked about and wouldn't have accepted. And it's not just that it's easy to say when you're free, because if it wasn't for El and Neal, he was ready to turn himself in.
Honestly, from Peter's point of view, this is hearbreaking. His whole world has been turned upside down. He feels like a fraud. He is doubting himself, and he feels like distancing himself from Neal is the only way not to lose himself. And because it's an established fact he loves Neal, we know it's costing him a lot. Just like it costs Neal a lot to deceive Peter. And despite everything, Peter couldn't resign himself to arrest Neal. And he kept the Welsh coins off record in Dekker's interrogation.
I honestly don't know how they'll solve this.They'll probably need some sort of cathartic event (hopefully not too catastrophic, and soon enough...). And I'm actually worried that there's still a lot that Peter doesn't know and won't like anymore than the corrupted judge. Hagen. Siegel's death.
But I was looking forward to (and dreading at the same time) that moment where Peter will discover the truth about his release, and I have to say, I am satisfied of the treatment. I like that the show dared going fully into the moral dilemna for Peter, and managed to keep him true to his character. It would have been much easier for everyone (mainly us) if Peter had accepted the situation with a pat in Neal's back. But that would have compromised Peter, as a character. That would have made him no better than all those TV cops who think they know better and think they're above the law and the system.
I'm proud of my show for not taking the easy road, and for not sweeping it all under the rug like I've seen so many other shows do (NCIS, The Mentalist...).
And god, I'm glad we won't be left rotting several months after that episode!
ETA: make sure to also read![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
veleda_k's anlysis HERE, who adds a very important point: from what Peter knows now, it's Neal who stole the gold to bribe the judge on his own.
If you think Burke is a jerk, please refrain from commenting. I don't think he deserves any hate or any less love than Neal.
If you're willing to courteously add your own observations, please feel free to join the conversation.
Yes, it hurts to see the boys at odds, and it's a complicated situation but I don't want to put the blame on anybody. Yes, Neal did the only things he could to save Peter, and it's legitimate for him to feel like he did the right thing. But Peter is Peter, and from his point of view, this cannot be the right thing.
This is a very complicated for Peter, and I'll try to make it coherent. It was kind of a test, and as a character, I think Peter passed it.
But first of all, I think it's important to point out that after 4 seasons and a half of shenanigans and love, it should be an established fact that Peter cares very much for Neal, so anything that rips them apart is just as painful for Peter as it is for Neal (and for us). Neal feels hurt and betrayed. Peter very much too.
There's a right way and a wrong way.
Peter's a man of law, he believes strongly in his duty to serve Justice. He doesn't place himself above the law, but he needs to be above suspicion and reproach. He has high standards to live up to. To "serve Justice" he needs to be untouchable. He can bend the law, and sometimes obtain leads without warrants - leads, not evidence. But in the end, he always makes sure everything fall back within the law, and that he is serving justice. Bad guys are being arrested and will face trial, he gathers evidence, and protects the victim.
Contrary to Neal's remark, it is not "the end justifies the mean." The mean has to be acceptable. And like I said before, if Peter can venture outside his law book, he will never venture outside the right side of moral.
And faking evidence, bribing a judge, that's simply NOT acceptable. Period.
What would it say about him if he accepted that? That would make him just as corrupted and morally wrong as any of the criminal he arrests. Morally, he should arrest himself.
That conversation with Elizabeth was particularly heartbreaking, and I love Peter so much for his internal troubles. He'd rather risk a trial - that doesn't even look good for him - than compromise himself. And it's not a pose. It's that deep down, he couldn't live with himself if he was corrupted. Peter needs to believe he is a good person.
I need to be able to live with myself.
Now that he knows, he feels like it's his duty to reveal everything, even if the consequences would be disastrous for him.
Of course, in the end, he accepted a compromise, because he's also caring, and Elizabeth should not have to pay the price of his conscience crisis. And neither should Neal.
But accepting this compromise cost Peter a lot, and it's legitimate that he doesn't want to be placed in such a situation again.
Peter is actually terrified of what it means for him, of who he's become. How did he end in a situation where he had no right way out? How come that the only thing to do was to compromise himself, doing something he deeply despises?
During four seasons, Peter thought he was pulling Neal to the right side, showing him he could become someone better. And now he is realizing it's actually Neal who is dragging him on his side. And that's a side Peter doesn't want to go to.
Solving things illegally and against the system always come back to bite you, it only created more chaos. If you think only in term of self-interest and not in a larger view of restoring justice, it doesn't actually solve anything.
So, Peter is also disappointed. In Neal, who he really wanted to believe was becoming a better person, and in himself, for fooling himself in believing so.
There's also the fact that Peter didn't ask for any of this. He was ready to accept the consequences for his actions, because he always does. He'd do anything for Neal, disobey order or help his father, and he's ready to accept the demotions or unfortunate turns of events. If he had lost his job, he would have accepted it, because he was convinced he had still been doing the right thing helping Neal.
Peter has no problems taking full responsiblity for his actions, but it's harder to accept things he didn't do, wasn't asked about and wouldn't have accepted. And it's not just that it's easy to say when you're free, because if it wasn't for El and Neal, he was ready to turn himself in.
Honestly, from Peter's point of view, this is hearbreaking. His whole world has been turned upside down. He feels like a fraud. He is doubting himself, and he feels like distancing himself from Neal is the only way not to lose himself. And because it's an established fact he loves Neal, we know it's costing him a lot. Just like it costs Neal a lot to deceive Peter. And despite everything, Peter couldn't resign himself to arrest Neal. And he kept the Welsh coins off record in Dekker's interrogation.
I honestly don't know how they'll solve this.They'll probably need some sort of cathartic event (hopefully not too catastrophic, and soon enough...). And I'm actually worried that there's still a lot that Peter doesn't know and won't like anymore than the corrupted judge. Hagen. Siegel's death.
But I was looking forward to (and dreading at the same time) that moment where Peter will discover the truth about his release, and I have to say, I am satisfied of the treatment. I like that the show dared going fully into the moral dilemna for Peter, and managed to keep him true to his character. It would have been much easier for everyone (mainly us) if Peter had accepted the situation with a pat in Neal's back. But that would have compromised Peter, as a character. That would have made him no better than all those TV cops who think they know better and think they're above the law and the system.
I'm proud of my show for not taking the easy road, and for not sweeping it all under the rug like I've seen so many other shows do (NCIS, The Mentalist...).
And god, I'm glad we won't be left rotting several months after that episode!
ETA: make sure to also read
veleda_k's anlysis HERE, who adds a very important point: from what Peter knows now, it's Neal who stole the gold to bribe the judge on his own.If you think Burke is a jerk, please refrain from commenting. I don't think he deserves any hate or any less love than Neal.
If you're willing to courteously add your own observations, please feel free to join the conversation.
Tags:
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Date: 2013-12-21 01:04 pm (UTC)And to indulge myself -> *hugs Peter and Neal sooooooooooooo tightly*
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Date: 2013-12-21 01:36 pm (UTC)Hate against a show or a character is something I don't understand. What's the point? It's not good for the heart, so much hate!
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Date: 2013-12-21 01:50 pm (UTC)Could I link to here from my LJ? The more in the fandom who reads this, the better I think! I've already avoided a couple of fics that have stated Peter-hate in them, or anger at Peter and 'I wrote this fic to show him he is wrong' - and they were before this week's ep *rolls eyes*.
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Date: 2013-12-21 01:58 pm (UTC)Sure, go ahead and link on your journal. :-)
I just cannot understand, whether it's Peter, Neal, El, Mozzie, that need to pin them down and demonstrate that they're wrong. I don't like this blame game, and it's particularly unjustified this time.
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Date: 2013-12-21 02:15 pm (UTC)I don't really get the 'they're wrong and let's show them that' fanfic, or how people can get so angry at a character who is just acting in-character!
And really, is Neal's lawbreaking a good thing? I'm a Neal fan and I would love him to be reformed to a large extent, but the fact of the matter is that he's not reformed - and he may never be! And do I really want him to be totally law-abiding? Is that even possible for Neal? I expect the answer to both is no, if I'm being brutally honest with myself!
*goes off to post*
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Date: 2013-12-21 03:09 pm (UTC)To some extend, we love him for being who he is, but at the same, we see that it's not working.
Well, I guess there's a reason why stealing and conning are illegal and morally wrong. ;-)
If I wasn't spending all my time trying to explain that Peter isn't a monster, I could try and write what I think of Neal too.
I think his relationship with Becca is actually getting really interesting. Coming clean was a first step. And now, she wants to be part of his life, but this is where it gets dangerous. It's not just about breaking the law, it's really that Neal's world, and the people he is associated too are dangerous, and bringing Rebecca into it would make him responsible if anything were to happen to her.
I think we have 2 things going with Neal this season. He still needs Peter's approval - and he is seeing the limits to which Peter is willing to go.
And he is also trying to build a relationship with an honest and innocent girl (at least from his point of view).
And Neal might realize that if he wants to have honest people like Peter or Rebecca in his life, he might have to give up his criminal life for real.
Thanks for the post! :-)
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Date: 2013-12-21 02:46 pm (UTC)My main confusion comes from the plot itself. As an addicted fan from the pilot, I have willingly followed the show wherever it took me, and I understand that there has to be some conflict between the lawman and the con man. But, I don't understand why the show went where they did this season. Why did they set up this circumstance where Neal did the only thing he believed he could do, in keeping with his character, and now Peter has to do what he did in this episode, and what he will have to continue to do, in keeping with who and what he is?
This is more than the conflicts they have presented before that were solved without too much damage to the characters, and even some growth and understanding. This is huge, fundamental, down to the core of what they are, not just what they do.I don't understand why the show went here and how they can go from here.(I am completely unspoiled and don't want to know what spoilers say will happen, I am more interested in trying to figure out why they went here)
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Date: 2013-12-21 03:09 pm (UTC)Well, I think the show is constantly testing them and challenging the friendship. And I think we've reached both men's limits. I honestly have no idea how they're going to solve this, because it's more complicated than a treasure that just need to be given back. But I also find this interesting that the show is going at the core of its own concept, questioning its limits. And I find it much more compelling than exploring Neal's past and Jame's history.
Though I wouldn't mind a lighter season next year!
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Date: 2013-12-21 05:27 pm (UTC)All in all, props to you! This was an insightful read and it sheds light on the reasoning behind Peter's reactions in the mid-season finale. Thank you so much for sharing! =)
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Date: 2013-12-21 06:15 pm (UTC)Glad you enjoyed my little meta. :-)
I really like Peter as a character and I thought, no matter heartbreaking it was to watch, that his reactions were true to character.
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Date: 2013-12-21 06:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-21 07:12 pm (UTC)I really enjoy this season too. I like that they're going to the core of the relationship and exploring its limits.
Oh good point about DC. I had been wondering ever since it was mentioned how they would get rid of it. ;-)
I have no idea how they're going to end the season and how they're going to solve all this!
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Date: 2013-12-21 08:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-22 12:05 am (UTC)Yes exactly!
God this is just such a bad situation... I really hope they'll find a way to fix things, though I really don't see how...
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Date: 2013-12-21 08:52 pm (UTC)But I agree with you! I mean, certainly I have sympathy for Neal also, because Neal's in a terrible situation. But so is Peter, and I don't think he's any less right, or any less sympathetic. He has a right to be angry! Neal boxed him into a situation where he's always going to have this hanging over his head. He'll never be free of it. He thought he got out of prison free and clear, and won a much-deserved promotion. Instead, he was cheated out of prison through a crime, which will always have a chance of being discovered and sending him back (probably for life this time). And his promotion, which he felt he'd earned by being a good agent and working hard, is actually based on lies.
Also, like
If Peter was willing to easily accept the situation ("Neal bribed a prosecutor to get me out of prison? Sure, cool!") he wouldn't be Peter. I admit that I didn't want him to be this angry, but the way it played out in the episode, it's not hard to see why he is.
At the same time, Neal did the only thing that he -- being the person he is -- could have done in that situation. I'm glad that he stuck up for himself and insisted that he'd done the right thing, because he did. However, what he did was something that Peter wouldn't have wanted him to do, and he knew it even at the time. To get Peter out of prison, he was willing to accept the risk of both going to prison himself, and of Peter never talking to him again. He knew Peter was going to be really angry and hurt over this.
I really like that the show is presenting the situation with sympathy for both of them. The terrible thing is that there really are no right answers here; there's no good guy and bad guy, just a couple of good people trying to do the best they can with the awful hand they've been dealt.
Thank you for making this post. :)
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:13 am (UTC)I really like that the show is presenting the situation with sympathy for both of them. The terrible thing is that there really are no right answers here; there's no good guy and bad guy, just a couple of good people trying to do the best they can with the awful hand they've been dealt.
Yes, exactly!
I heartfully agree with everything you said. I have to say, I didn't expect such an outburst from Peter either - especially since he already played the changes card in 5x01 - but at the same time, and even though it is hard to watch, I think it's better for the integrity of his character.
I do hope they won't stay at odds for too long, but I do think it's a legitimate reaction from Peter.
Oh and I picked at your conversation with Veleda, which I loved. In particular your observation that this is the first time Neal stood up for his action (though he might have started a little in 4x09 when he said they were done because Peter didn't trust him) But I didn't think about it, and it's very interesting.
God, how are they going to fix this ?!
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Date: 2013-12-21 10:05 pm (UTC)I will say this - I think that the writing about Peter has been inconsistent in that when it suits the writers they have Peter allow Neal to do small crimes for the greater good. Sneaking into places (like the dinosaur episode) - that was completely against the law. Neal went in there and searched the place and they had no warrant. There have been several other instances where Neal has been allowed or even asked to do a small thing that bends the law to get the criminal for the FBI.
So this makes me uncomfortable - that the writers have not brought up how confusing this has to be for someone like Neal who clearly cannot distinguish right from wrong very easily. I see Peter has Neal's guide to the right side of the law, but if he allows him to bend it a little here and there, how will Neal ever understand the differences - be them subtle or blatant?
This probably makes no sense because I have a horrible migraine. But I just wanted to say it is good some are still enjoying the show! Good!
Hopefully, there will be a season 6 and I will be happier then.
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:03 pm (UTC)I absolutely do not think that Peter deserves hate. And I can see how recent events have been particularly difficult and stressful for him. I can understand Peter's initial anger - he has covered for Neal a lot and put himself out there to help him, and then Neal admits to stealing the coins under Peter's nose. I can also understand that once Peter realizes that Neal did it *for* Peter, it creates a different, but also extremely difficult situation. Peter didn't ask for the sort of help Neal gave him, and if Neal had offered, Peter would have told him not to do it. And now it *is* hanging over Peter's head, and he knows he was freed with false evidence, and it is hard for him to live with that.
That said, when Neal tells Peter he that he does, in fact, know what he did, that he made sure justice was served, and Peter says, "No. That's what *I* do," and then later when Peter is all, "Shame on me for expecting that you could do anything other than behave as a criminal," it comes off as I guess confusing at best and frankly kind of hypocritical. And it's not just that Peter allows Neal to commit small crimes in service of the FBI. Breaking the law to help a friend is unequivocally wrong when Neal does it (at least this time), but it was okay for Peter to do it (see: Vital Signs, when Peter steals the surveillance tape to keep Neal out of prison). And actually, it's apparently sometimes okay when Neal does it (see: Bad Judgment, when Peter *thanks* Neal for destroying the videotape evidence against Peter when he's accused of bribing the judge).
So yeah, I think your point is a reasonable one. And I would add that the events of the series haven't given Neal much reason to trust the system that Peter wants him to rely on to see justice served. Kate's plane blew up and no one knows why or how? Well, Neal is convenient, let's arrest him. An art thief and forger has fled custody? Let's send a loose canon after him who is willing to shoot an unarmed man, point blank. Fowler? Kramer? Collins? All part of the system that Neal is supposed to put his trust in.
So do I understand Peter being upset (and that's probably an understatement)? Yes. Do I think he's a villain? No. But nor do I think he has as much right to the higher ground as he's claiming right now. Do I think stealing and bribing one's way out of a situation is a good idea? No. But I also understand why Neal did what he did, and believe that if he had seen any other way out of the situation he would have taken it - he was clearly trying to find a solution that didn't involve "behaving like a criminal" before time ran out.
Oh, boys! ::hugs both of them::
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:14 pm (UTC)This. Everything in your post, but especially this. (I wish I had seen this before - would have spared me the agonizing twenty minutes trying to sum up my thoughts when you've already done it in a neater way :) )
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:43 pm (UTC)Whatever he does, he is still serving Justice. This might be naive, or maybe wrong at time, but this is what he believes in (like Neal believes in the fact that helping someone is a valid reason to break all the rules).
I've read several comments about Peter using Neal and making do illegal things for a case, and then calling him out on other occasion.
But Peter is just using Neal as his CI. A criminal informant doesn't need a warrant to gather intel. And I don't recall them ever gathering evidence that way. They would simply find a lead, make progress in the investigation, and then, will caught the bad guys properly, with all the warrants and acceptable evidence and willing confessions.
In the end, the bad guys are brought to justice, victims find repair, and justice *is* served. It makes the system work. This is about restoring order. As Sheenianni says, Peter understands the shades of gray, but he always uses them for a morally right reason.
But here the situation is different, it's only a temporary fix that can come back to bite them anytime. And that only feeds the rampant corruption. From Peter's point of view, Justice cannot be served by bribing a judge, where's the restoration of order in that? It just makes him one of them. He should arrest himself, and from what he knows, it's Neal who bribed the judge, he should very much arrest Neal.
I don't know, maybe I'm blinded by my own bias, but I do see a difference.
Note that I really don't condemn Neal's action, but I still think Peter has a legitimate right to feel betrayed.
And in the end, I think Peter's biggest problem is what the compromise he was forced to do makes of him. Maybe he *was* corrupted before, but it's only now that he sees it. And he has no way out.
Anyhow, I do agree that this is a valid point and even if in Peter's mind there is a difference, it's probable that it's not that clear in Neal's.
Thank you both for stepping in, and sharing your view. :-)
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:21 am (UTC)This leads me to another question - how much does Peter actually know or thinks he know? We know that he suspects Neal of helping Mozzie, of stealing the 2 million and of being involved with Siegel's death. So, because Peter isn't stupid, I sincerely doubt that he thinks that this was all about just the prosecutor and the coins. Which of course only gives him more reasons to be upset, angry and, frankly, frightened.
As for Peter being compromised, to a degree, he has been compromised for a long time (as Kramer points out in Judgment Day). But I guess the difference is that Peter had chosen that course of action back then knowing the consequences, whether here it had been forced on him by Neal. Also, in this case, if Peter was ever to be blackmailed by this, he will have to expose Neal who was only trying to help (no matter how much Peter hates the way he went about it) - so not only Neal has compromised Peter, he has also put him in a position where at anytime he might be forced to incriminate Neal and send him to jail, and I imagine that that must also hurt a lot on some level.
All in all, I feel genuinely sorry for Peter (and Neal of course) - and I still stand by what I said; that no matter their current estrangement, the only way they can resolve this is by working as a team. I really hope that they BOTH realize that before it'S too late.
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:31 am (UTC)Though when that will come out...
But I agree with what you say, and yes, I really hope they'll be back on the same page soon! I don't want the whole rest of the season with them upset! They need it, and we need it too!
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-22 12:38 am (UTC)I guess we'll jsut have to wait and see how it plays out.
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-22 12:31 am (UTC)That said, there are examples in the series that go beyond that, a couple of which I noted in my original comment. Just this season, Peter is okay with Neal drugging the psychiatrist to get a confession (which certainly seems like him doing something illegal to obtain evidence). And as I noted above, Peter steals a surveillance tape to protect Neal from being sent to jail. When Neal steals and erases the tape Fowler is going to use as evidence that Peter bribed a judge, Peter thanks him. In one of those cases, Peter breaks the law to help a friend, and it has nothing to do with solving the case or "restoring order." And in the other, while preventing Peter from being falsely accused of bribery is ultimately important to getting the bad guy, it's hardly the case of a criminal informant "gathering intel."
I do note that you aren't condemning Neal's actions here. Note that neither am I saying that Peter doesn't have reason to feel angry or even betrayed. :-) But I also think that essentially telling Neal that he (Peter) was foolish to think that Neal could be better, that he could behave in any other way, with the clear implication that Neal didn't even try to do anything else, was not entirely fair. And that given past events, Peter is on somewhat shaky ground.
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:39 am (UTC)I am certainly not condemning Neal's actions. I did say from day one it was stupid and would come back to bite him, but it was out of love, and it was certainly a huge sacrifice. To me, Neal sacrificed his own redemption for Peter's sake.
But as Veleda pointed out in her recent post (http://veleda-k.livejournal.com/353546.html#). Peter doesn't know the whole story. All he knows is that Neal stole the coins to pay a judge. That's where his "you couldn't help yourself" is coming from. I'm not totally sure why Neal doesn't want to talk about Hagen. But until he does, Peter has no way to think Neal was forced to do anything. It was Neal's entire responsibility.
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:46 am (UTC)a) he helped him go free, therefore setting loose a killer, comittign a crime, breaking Peter's trust and destroyingthe first case peter and Neal had ever closed
b) he is still trying to protect Peter and keep him out of this as much as he can
c) Peter being already furious enough
d) Siegel.
Of course it's going to come to bite them in the ass, but at the same time... I can sympathize with Neal's reasons to play this close to the vest, even though he's probably making another mistake.
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Date: 2013-12-22 01:00 am (UTC)Also, thanks to you, too, for the good discussion. It is most welcome.
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Date: 2013-12-22 12:18 am (UTC)I hadn't noticed fangeek's post was a reponse to yours. :-/ I answered out of order, so I tried to explain the difference I see in response to her post below. Though I agree that if Peter sees a difference, it's probably not that clear for Neal.
Though at the same time, Neal knew from the get go Peter would not like it, so he still knows what Peter thinks is acceptable or not.
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:02 pm (UTC)Because Peter breaks those principles all the time. He repeatedly breaks the law to shield Neal from the consequences of his actions, and he often turns a blind eye or even encourages Neal in his illegal escapades for the FBI. As you said, Peter believes in Justice - and most of the time that means following the law, but when he believes that justice and the law don't meet, he'll rewraw the lines how it suits him.
And it's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, his belief in fairness is a part of what makes Peter a good man who knows how to show his suspects compassion and understanding. The law isn't perfect and Peter also believes in second chances and mercy. His willingness to see the shades of gray is one of the things that make him and Neal such a good team. But at the same time, Peter cutting at Neal for his criminal actions while protecting a friend strikes me as hypocritical, given that Peter has done the same several times in the past.
Neal has put Peter in a horribly compromising position without really giving him a choice, and I really get all the dilemmas and the depth of the crisis that Peter's facing here (instead of being freed by justice, it was thanks to Neal's bribe and deception; Peter's world is upside down, everything you've listed above). And Peter has every right to be angry at Neal about putting him in this position. But I don't think he any longer has the right to tear Neal down for acting like a criminal to protect a loved one or a friend after doing the same thing again and again in the past.
I hope this makes sense, and I really hope that Peter and Neal reconcile soon - I have a feeling that they will need every bit of their wits to outsmart Hagen and that the only way they can do it is as a team. (And I hope I didn't squash your squee!)
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-21 11:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-21 11:45 pm (UTC)Thank you for sharing your view. I do appreciate civilized conversations. :-)
Ahhh lots to ponder after this episode! Maybe we do need those 3 weeks of break LOL
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:14 pm (UTC)The blame and vilification game is unnecessary and hurtful. Why would you attack either man for remaining true to character? I love both these men.
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Date: 2013-12-21 11:49 pm (UTC)Even more, why would you attack either man when both their views have their valid side?
What would we do in such situations? Could we remain morally pure? Would we dare breaking every laws and still being able to believe we're good people?
I think we want to be a little bit of them. Have Peter's moral compass and integrity, and Neal's braveness.
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Date: 2013-12-22 01:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-22 09:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-22 09:25 am (UTC)It does pain me that so many fans don't even try to understand Peter. It's okay to have a favorite, but still, Peter is not a bad guy, and he has the same right than Neal to be upset every once in a while...
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Date: 2013-12-22 09:01 am (UTC)He can bend the law, and sometimes obtain leads without warrants - leads, not evidence. But in the end, he always makes sure everything fall back within the law, and that he is serving justice.
Neal compares his stealing to Peter lying to him. That's ridiculous. It's not illegal for Peter to lie to a suspect (or anyone). It is illegal to send Neal to commit crimes. I think that in S1-S3 they managed quite well with Neal staying on the right side of the law for FBI operations. And if he committed crimes, he did it without Peter knowing. Somehow it all went skewy in S4 and S5.
It's a very slippery slope when law enforcement decide when they're allowed to break the law. So I feel Peter is hypocritical at this point. But for the rest of it, I don't expect him to be happy Neal broke the law for him. It was clear it would rock his most basic foundations when he found out he was acquitted by illegal means.
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Date: 2013-12-22 09:23 am (UTC)I do understand that in Neal's mind "justice was served", but in Peter's it can't be.
Again, this is not a matter of absolute truth, and I really don't want to demonstrate who's right who's wrong, that's just the way they see the world and their actions.
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Date: 2013-12-22 06:48 pm (UTC)I liked the point about that it wouldn't be true to his character if Peter had just accepted the situation.
I was sort of dreading coming on LJ because I was afraid there was going to be a whole lot of Peter hate. I was pleased to find that that is not the case. That there are so many fans who try to understand the characters and see where they are coming from.
I know that the hate is out there but I have learned where to avoid. I am happy that there are so many places I can go where fans have intelligent, insightful things to say. Instead of posting hate or arguing about who is more awful. Which they have the right to do but I have never understood.
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Date: 2013-12-22 10:54 pm (UTC)I wonder if the crux of their problem is that they have unrealistic expectations of each other. Peter thinks if he shows Neal he has other options than the criminal ones that it will be simple for him to choose the right side of the law. Peter needs to realize that it is a lot more complicated than that.
Neal needs to stand up to Peter about his expectations for him. He needs figure out what he wants & to stand up (to both Peter & Mozzie) about it. Sometimes I think he feels like he's being torn between the Life (as Mozzie called it) & Peter.
He should also stop idolizing Peter & El relationship. He is putting too much pressure on himself to match what they have instead of letting things develop on their own. I think he gotten too serious, too fast with Rebecca because of it.
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Date: 2013-12-22 11:14 pm (UTC)I absolutely agree. I think one of Neal's problems is that he doesn't know what he wants. He loves "the Life", but at the same time, he doesn't assume being "a criminal" in the eyes of people like Peter or Rebecca (at least until she became fascinated by his criminal side)
And that's also true that Peter needs to figure out if Neal wants to change. I think he's starting to realize Neal wants to be a criminal. He doesn't have all the keys, not even now, to why Neal is doing all this, this season, but from his point of view, Neal is just being a criminal, and he's struggling to adjust with that new fact.
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Date: 2013-12-23 12:15 am (UTC)Up until now Peter thought Neal was on the way to being reformed. Now He is struggling with the scenario that one day he will have to arrest Neal and put him back in jail and he doesn't know if could do it.